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Health Advocacy in the Public Interest
Sadly, this web site disappeared in mid-2013. At least the children of Colorado are safer now.

I received an email from someone who had written to me on several previous occasions but had forgotten about those messages. Despite having five years to research the matter, she still could not find out my name. Is it any wonder that she believes things which are patently untrue. I replied to her in the kind and gentle manner which has become a hallmark of my correspondence with child-killers. Here is her email, with my responses in grey italics.

From: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: Vaccine Liars
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:16:14 -0700

Dear whoever you are,

I just love it when people who claim the ability to thoroughly research all the supposed dangers of vaccines exhibit their incompetence at research by not being able to find my name on my site. My name has been on the site since the very first day, more than five years ago. By the way, you have emailed me on at least three occasions, back when you were the Vice President of Concerned Parents for Vaccine Safety. (See here, here and here.)

You should be ashamed of yourself. Your website it just horrifying. My daughter died as a result of vaccination (you can check me out all you want, I'm for real and this is the truth).

Which vaccination? What was the exact nature of her reaction? Was the cause of death determined by autopsy? I am sorry for your loss, as I am sorry for the thousands of children who die daily from vaccine-preventable diseases such as measles.

My story is not unlike Christine Colebeck's and good for her if she is suing Aventis Pasteur. She should sue them. Yes, vaccines containing mercury cause autism, Asperger's, ADD, and a host of other horrifying problems including death.

How much is your story like Christine Colbeck's? Did you have a child die of SIDS and then several years later invent a story about how it was a death caused by vaccines so that you could extort money out of someone? I would hate to think that anything in my life was like the life of a liar and a blackmailer.

You might think, despite all evidence, that the tiny amounts of mercury bound into thimerosal molecules caused all these things, but what you think doesn't change the facts. In any case, the "mercury" has been removed from almost all vaccines now. I know that you have some denials of this citing Boyd Haley on your web site, but you, I and Haley all know the truth. The difference between us is that while three of us know the truth, only one tells it. And that isn't you or Haley.

I pity you for your ignorance.

I pity the children who will die or be disabled if ignorant people like you get your way and parents stop vaccinating their children.

I am not a liar. The people who killed my daughter are liars. Lord have mercy on their souls, and yours. May you never know the pain of watching your own child die from mercury poisoning.

What are the precise symptoms of mercury poisoning? I ask again, was this poisoning determined by autopsy and pathology tests, or is it what you think happened? May you never know the pain of seeing a hospital ward full of iron lungs or of blind children with their meninges destroyed by measles. But, then, you probably think that these would be small prices to pay to make the world free of vaccines.

I have never witnessed such blatant stupidity and ignorance as I have on your website. I am literally going to vomit.

Be careful if you go near the vomit. A large part of it is muriatic acid, which is 94.4% poisonous gas by weight, a gas which has been used in warfare as a weapon of mass destruction. Get Boyd Haley to explain it to you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dawn Winkler
Executive Director
Health Advocacy in the Public Interest (HAPI)
www.hapihealth.com

Thank you for this web site to add to my collection of anti-vaccination liars. Due to its egregiousness, it will be added to the general Liars list as well.

Investigate Before You Vaccinate...Your Kids, Your Rights, Your Choice


The lady was so unhappy with what I had to say that she could not contain herself to a single message but instead had to send me two, nine minutes apart. As they raised issues which are exemplary of the values, thought processes and lies of the anti-vaccination liars, I decided to continue the correspondence for one more round.


From: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: Re: Vaccine Liars
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:24:22 -0700

You are truly an idiot and I don't want to know what your name is. Your site is disgusting. You care nothing about children. You deserve whatever you get in this life.

See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya.

Using someone's name when you are communicating with them is simply a matter of good manners. I am not surprised at your deliberate rudeness (or at the schoolyard taunt at the end of your message) because it is consistent with the selfish attitude of the anti-vaccination liars which places their (your) comfort in such an exalted position that the rights and safety of others becomes inconsequential. I am also unsurprised at your admission that you have not the slightest interest in ascertaining a fact, an attitude which is again consistent with the dogmatic, self-centred ideology you espouse.

As for my caring about children, it is not I who is campaigning to deny the hope of a safe future to the tens of millions of children who die or who are damaged each year by vaccine preventable diseases. Perhaps, though, you think that because they are not your children they deserve whatever they get in life.


From: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: Re: Vaccine Liars
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:14:19 -0700

Yep, you got it. I'm rude to those who are rude to me. I have a dead child that our medical industry killed. I have spent 9 years in university libraries researching this issue. I have ascertained fact. It makes me sick to see you attack people like Christine Colebeck and myself who have lost children. You have no idea what that is like. We didn't MAKE UP stories or reasons for their deaths. We found it in the peer reviewed medical literature when we LOOKED. Truth be told, it was a hell of a lot easier for me when I believed there was "no cause" for my daughter's death. As if that makes any sense.


From: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: Re: Vaccine Liars
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:33:31 -0700

By the way, my organization tested mercury free vaccines and we are getting ready to do it again using a lab that does work for the EPA. They weren't mercury free despite the manufacturer's claims that they were so it has not been removed.

Why did you choose Doctor's Data? What specific tests did they perform? What were the detected amounts of mercury? Was the concentration detected less than that which occurs naturally in seawater, and if so, would you let your children swim at the beach? What is the accuracy of their measuring instruments at the levels supposedly detected? What work does this new lab do for the EPA? (Please don't say that they have passed some inspection under EPA standards for laboratory conditions.) Why are you planning to have the test done again if it was conclusive the first time? So many questions, so little time to make up lies.

I see that on your web site where you discuss your testing you have a paragraph which says:

Thimerosal, a 50% mercury compound is still being used to produce most vaccines, but the manufacturers claim to be "filtering it out" of the final product. However, according to Boyd Haley, PhD, Chemistry Department Chair, University of Kentucky, mercury binds to the antigenic protein in the vaccine and cannot be completely filtered out. It is now well known that mercury in vaccines is associated with autism and other neurological disorders in children; 1 in 166 children is now autistic and 1 in 6 have neurological disorders such as ADD, ADHD, etc.

Thimerosal is not 50% mercury. It is 4.35% mercury by composition, 43% by proportion of protons and 49.5% by weight. The last two percentages are meaningless and would only be used by people who know no chemistry or who want to deceive people who know no chemistry.

What does Dr Haley mean by "the antigenic protein in the vaccine"? Would it be possible for him to be more specific, or is he claiming that whenever a protein associated with a pathological organism goes near a molecule of thimerosal, the mercury atom leaps out of one molecule and joins up with another? If this attraction is so strong and so permanent, what happens when the vaccine is injected into the body? Why does the antigen protein now release the mercury atom to do its deadly work? Does this man have a clue what he is talking about, or doesn't he care?

It is not well known that "mercury in vaccines is associated with autism and other neurological disorders in children". In fact, all of the research has shown quite the opposite - there is no connection.

The diagnostic criteria for autism have changed, so that many more children are included than would have been some years ago. The reasons for this are complex, as there are both medical and political variables in the equation.

Alternative medicine rejects diagnoses of ADD and ADHD and says that the apparent increases in these are solely due to changed diagnostic criteria introduced for the benefit of pharmaceutical companies. Please try to keep up with the dogma.

If you don't get the mercury is the most toxic substance on earth next to plutonium and an extreme neurotoxin then you are just not capable of reason.

Plutonium is nowhere near the "most toxic substance on earth", so if mercury is less toxic all you can say is that it is less toxic. Before you start citing crackpots like Dr Helen Caldicott and her "one pound of plutonium could kill everyone on earth", please be aware that in 1973, ten years after the USA, the USSR and Britain stopped above-ground nuclear testing (France and China kept going for a few more years), there was an estimated 10,000 pounds of plutonium distributed throughout the atmosphere. In 1962, when everyone was testing bombs in the atmosphere, the amount was about 75,000 pounds. Put another way, if plutonium was even 0.1% as toxic as scaremongers make out then the entire population of the world would have been wiped out before the Beatles had their first hit record.

I watched my daughter die from mercury poisoning, she received 172 times the amount the EPA considers OK via her vaccinations (123 micrograms is not a tiny amount of mercury, hey, ever read Heavenly Intrigue? Great true story about how an astronomer killed another astronomer using guess what, mercury, 400 year ago).

I keep hearing about the EPA's safe limit for exposure to mercury. It appears that there is some dispute about what it is as the amount of the "massive dose" from vaccines seems to vary between claimants - you say 172 times, others say 25 times, some say just over the daily limit. Which is it to be?

What fascinates me is how secretive the EPA are about this. Their IRIS database, which lists the risk assessments of many chemicals has only two entries for mercury. One is for elemental mercury and gives a limit for mercury vapour in air, and the other is for methyl mercury, the kind found in fish. Neither of these have anything to do with thimerosal and the way in which mercury is bound into the molecule. Please give me a precise reference to where I can read the EPA's guidelines on exposure to mercury in the form presented by thimerosal.

Nobody has ever denied that certain compounds of mercury are dangerous, but nitrogen is essential for life even though there is a chemical which is more than 50% nitrogen (by weight) and which can kill you in seconds. You might like to get Professor Haley to explain the differences between Hg, CH3Hg and C9H9HgO2SNa. If he can.

She suffered blatant symptoms of mercury poisoning and died.

What symptoms of mercury poisoning did she show?

Some children cannot detoxify mercury from their system due to which type of APOE they get from their parents (2,3,or4), this is well documented in scientific peer reviewed medical journals.

Which alleles of APOE are in your DNA? Which alleles of APOE are in your husband's DNA? Please remember that 50% of the population have the e3 allele. There appears to be a connection between e4 and susceptibility to Alzheimer's Disease, and between e2 and certain cardiovascular conditions, but which of the six combinations did your daughter have - e2+e2, e2+e3, e3+e3, e3+e4, e4+e4? She was autopsied, I assume, and tissue samples were taken for DNA analysis. By the way, the query "apolipoproteins E[majr] AND mercury[majr] AND english[la]" entered into PubMed with no time limitation on the search returns the list "No items found", so perhaps you could provide me with the citations for the research you refer to.

If you are so scared of measles, and you vaccinate, than what do you or other vaccinators have to be afraid of?

Vaccines are not 100% effective, which is why some of them need to be given multiple times. What I am worried about is that my child may not have achieved full immunity before being exposed to the infectious, pox-ridden children of irresponsible, selfish parents. Like you.

Please visit www.healthsentinel.com and view the true history of disease (graphs on left courtesy of US Census Bureau and Vital Statistics Data, maybe you can add the US Census Bureau to ratbags.com, I'm sure they are liars too). We have been scammed. You are perpetuating that.

I have seen the graphs on several anti-vaccination liar web sites, and they say nothing about the effectiveness or otherwise of vaccination. They show that with progress in the treatment of infectious diseases, deaths from these diseases dropped over time. They would mean something if the only two possible outcomes of vaccine-preventable diseases were death or complete recovery. The continued misuse of these graphs by people who have had this explained to them is just one of the reasons why I call these liars "liars".


From: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: Re: Vaccine Liars
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:08:41 -0700

Ok there Mr. Bowditch,
Since I am taking the time to write you I sincerely hope you will read my answers and take them into consideration. I have many doctors and scientists on my side.

Why did you choose Doctor's Data? What specific tests ...

I chose Doctor's Data on the recommendation of a PhD chemist and top expert on mercury poisoning.

I find it strange that such an expert should suggest a laboratory which bases its survival on finding heavy metals in samples and does it using such discredited procedures as hair testing. Surely a true expert would suggest having the tests done by a non-commercial laboratory such as a university chemistry department (not his own department, of course).

You still haven't answered several of my questions - What specific tests did they perform? What were the detected amounts of mercury? What is the accuracy of their measuring instruments at the levels supposedly detected?

For our next testing, we are using a lab recognized by the EPA. Our results will be admissable in court, we are following all chain of custody procedures. No, the concentration was NOT less than that in seawater. As a matter of fact, the concentrations were all higher than what is considered unacceptable for any body of water, yes, we had several chemists as well as state agencies that deal with mercury and water pollution analyze our results. Yes, the new lab does work for the EPA, didn't just pass an inspection.We are having the test done again because clearly, one test of four vials is not enough, it was simply to get the ball rolling. Just for your information, one of the doctors providing samples has worked for the FDA, closely with the CDC, and helped set up the VICP (you know, that little program that pays parents of vaccine damaged children).

The employment history of the source of the samples has nothing to do with what is found when the samples are tested. Suggesting that it is is deceptive.

Thimerosal is not 50% mercury. It is 4.35% mercury by composition, 43% by proportion of protons and 49.5% by weight. The last two percentages are meaningless and would only be used by people who know no chemistry or who want to deceive people who know no chemistry.

SO, YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT DR. HALEY, A PHD IN CHEMISTRY, CHAIR OF THE CHEMISTRY DEPT AT THE U OF KY AND LEADING EXPERT ON THIMEROSAL AND MERCURY POISONING KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE COMPOSITION AND EFFECTS OF THIMEROSAL?????

I didn't say anything about Dr Haley, nor did I suggest that he knows nothing about anything. I simply pointed out that a meaningless statement is a meaningless statement, even if it is true.

What does Dr Haley mean by "the antigenic protein in the vaccine"? Would it be possible for him to be more specific ...

I will forward this question to him and send you the answer I get.

It is not well known that "mercury in vaccines is associated with autism and other neurological disorders in children"; in fact, all of the research has shown quite the opposite - there is no connection.

Duh, have you read the studies by Hornig, Geier, Baskin, Haley, or those out of the University of Calgary? MIT? Columbia? Might I suggest you visit the Nation Autisms Society's library. All the pertinent studies are posted there.
http://www.nationalautismassociation.org/library.php

I am quite familiar with the collection of newspaper articles and bogus research on the NAA site. The fact that they cite even Safe Minds is enough to show that there is no selectivity there in what is published or referenced. While I think that citing Professor Haley as support for Professor Haley is as fine an example of solipsistic argument from authority as can be imagined, I really like his article where he rubbishes hair analysis but then goes on to say that the LOW LEVEL OF MERCURY in the hair of autistic children reveals the connection between mercury and autism. I also like the way that the same paper says that thimerosal is 49.6% ethylmercury but Dr Haley has told me in personal correspondence that it is 49.6% elemental mercury. He needs to make up his mind.

By the way, several articles and papers referenced on the NAA site say that mercury has nothing to do with autism and that it is caused by the MMR vaccine. I have to give Edward Yazbak credit for believing both myths simultaneously, but then he also believes that murderers are heroes so nothing he says should come as a surprise.

The diagnostic criteria for autism have changed ...

Oh my God, have you ever been around and autistic child that doesn't speak and still shits his pants at age 8? Because I have, and you just don't MISS THAT diagnosis and figure out how to diagnose it correctly because it is now 2004. Autism went from 1 in 20,000 to 1 in 166.

Are you claiming that 1 child in 166 "doesn't speak and still shits his pants at age 8"? You must live in a very strange and depressing universe. My niece has a form of autism and she has never been like that. Are the various support groups for parents of autistic children aware of your opinion of their children? Do you agree with Dr Haley that it is appropriate to describe autism as "mad child disease"?

Alternative medicine rejects diagnoses of ADD and ADHD and ...

So sad you believe those with the conflicts of interest.

Plutonium is nowhere near the "most toxic substance on earth", so if ...

OK, so plutonium is safe? Mercury is safe? I guess that is why they stopped using mercury thermometers.

Please try to read for comprehension. I didn't say that either plutonium or mercury is safe. I was merely pointing out that if you want to claim that something is the second most toxic thing in the world, don't put it just behind something which is not first.

Mercury thermometers are no longer used because better and cheaper alternatives have been invented.

I keep hearing about the EPA's safe limit for exposure to mercury. It appears that there is some dispute about what it is as the amount of the "massive dose" from vaccines seems to vary between claimants - you say 172 times, others say 25 times, some say just over the daily limit. Which is it to be?

It depends on which vaccines your kid received and which manufacturers made them. They all have different mercury levels. My daughter was 5 pounds 12 oz and received 123 micrograms of mercury by age 4 months I have her weight each time she received each dose and I used my brain and figured it out.

I am assuming that the 5 pounds 12 ounces (2.6Kg) was birth weight, not weight at 4 months. Your daughter was born with an elevated risk of infant mortality because of her low birth weight, although there is some debate about whether the increased mortality is caused by the low birth weight or there is some other factor which contributes to both birth weight and mortality. At the time your daughter was born she was already in trouble and at risk. You choose to blame vaccines because that frees you from any personal responsibility or guilt that her problems and subsequent death may have been even partially caused by something that you did while you were pregnant or which was inherent in your genetic makeup. In effect, you are saying that as it could not possibly have anything to do with who you are or what you did then someone or something else must be to blame.

What fascinates me is how secretive the EPA are about this. Their IRIS database, ...

You are correct!!!!! Good frickin job!!!! Thimerosal breaks down into ethylmercury, which is far more toxic than methylmercury and is preferentially taken up by the brain. You can read all about that at the TEST Foundation homepage, and then post it on ratbags. You are right, the EPA has not addressed ethylmercury and injection, only methylmercury and ingestion. Because ethylmercury is more toxic than methyl, it makes since to use the only guideline we've got to try and quantify what these kids received.

You were doing so well there, and even included a fact (thimerosal dissociates into ethylmercury and thiosalicylic acid), but then things went back to normal. Methylmercury is the dangerous form (see http://www.usgs.gov/themes/factsheet/146-00/ for example), because its molecule is smaller than that of the ethyl compound and can penetrate tissues more easily. Extrapolating from concerns about a chemical compound to another different compound because it suits your agenda is either poor science or deliberate deception, both of which are hallmarks of anti-vaccination lying.

In any case, the spurious "percentage by weight" comparison demonstrates to any true believer that methylmercury (CH3Hg - percentage of mercury 93%) is more dangerous than ethylmercury (C2H5Hg - percentage of mercury 87%).

You might like to get Professor Haley to explain the differences between Hg, CH3Hg and C9H9HgO2SNa. If he can.

I'm sure he can, and I will send it to you.

What symptoms of mercury poisoning did she show?

Severe eczema which started only after vaccinations, severe jaundice everytime she was vaccinated, severe milk allergy which started only after vaccination, hyptonic hyporesponsive episodes, severe neurological deficits which started only after vaccination and proceeded to get worse with each round. Have it on video. Took me three years to watch it after she died. It's pretty hard to look at your living child on video when they are dead.

Which alleles of APOE are in your DNA? Which alleles of APOE are in your husband's DNA? Please remember that 50% of the population have the e3 allele. ...

I don't know the alleles of APOE in my or my husband's DNA. Shouldn't have to, no one should be injected with that much mercury

You raised the possibility that your daughter may have had a specific genetic disposition toward susceptibility to mercury damage (despite there not being a single paper ever published in the scientific literature to suggest that possibility). You now say that you neither know nor care if she had that genetic condition, but you just threw it in to make mercury sound more dangerous. Thank you for being honest about your dishonesty.

Vaccines are not 100% effective, which ...

You are the selfish one my friend, you expect parents to play roulette and risk losing their children to vaccines to supposedly protect others. By the way, there are plenty of documented outbreaks of measles, whooping cough, etc, in FULLY VACCINATED SCHOOL POPULATIONS.

Which part of "Vaccines are not 100% effective" was hard to understand? The fact that full vaccination does not guarantee 100% immunity is not a reason to abandon vaccination, but it is a reason to keep unvaccinated and possibly pox-ridden children away from those whose parents have acted responsibly.

I have seen the graphs on several anti-vaccination liar web sites, and they say nothing ...

You choose to ignore blatant data that is staring you in the face

Which is that the death rates from certain diseases declined as better treatments for the symptoms and sequelae were developed, but the incidence of those diseases only declined when vaccination was introduced. I realise that in anti-vaccine world a child with meningitis or blindness from measles is not suffering at all because he is not dead, but out in the real world where people care about children other than their own these things matter.


From: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: Re: Vaccine Liars
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:07:26 -0700

I find it strange that such an expert should suggest a laboratory which bases its survival on finding heavy metals in samples and does it using such discredited procedures as hair testing. Surely a true expert would suggest having the tests done by a non-commercial laboratory such as a university chemistry department (not his own department, of course).

His own chemistry department was going to do testing, but then he realized that as much as the government already hates what his department has done, it would be better to have an independent, unafilliated lab do the work. Hair testing has it's uses, I guess you are not aware of them.

Whether I am aware or not of the uses of hair analysis is irrelevant. I was merely pointing out that in one of Dr Haley's most revered papers (the one where he gets confused between ethylmercury and elemental mercury) he says that hair analysis is not useful for some tests, in particular for detecting the level of mercury in autistic children.

You still haven't answered several of my questions - What specific tests did they perform? What were the detected amounts of mercury? What is the accuracy of their measuring instruments at the levels supposedly detected?

Like I said, the next lab we will use is one of the top in the country and recogized by the EPA (and yes, does work FOR them). We only had 4 samples tested by DD to determine whether or not more testing would be necessary, clearly, it is. You can see the results for yoursef at our website, the original report is posted there. www.hapihealth.com

It took a bit of finding on the site, but I eventually located it. Here is a summary:

To summarise the summary, you had some vaccines tested in an extremely amateurish way, the tests showed that what is stated in freely-available product literature is correct, and you are using these tests to support a claim that the product literature is not telling the truth. Are you beginning to see why I call anti-vaccination liars "liars"?

The employment history of the source of the samples has nothing to do with what is found when the samples are tested. Suggesting that it is is deceptive.

Are you saying DD found mercury that was not there?????????????????????????????????????

You really do have a reading comprehension problem, don't you? What I said was that the source of the samples, no matter how prestigious, has nothing to do with the results of testing those samples.

I didn't say anything about Dr Haley, nor did I suggest that he knows nothing about anything. I simply pointed out that a meaningless statement is a meaningless statement, even if it is true.

Yes, you did suggest. Read your own responses.

Are you claiming that 1 child in 166 "doesn't speak and still shits his pants at age 8"?

Half of the 1.5 million autistic children in the US don't speak and still shits their pants. Yes. The other half are what they call high functioning autistics. Where have you been?

You must live in a very strange and depressing universe. My niece has a form of autism and she has never been like that. Are the various support groups for parents of autistic children aware of your opinion of their children? Do you agree with Dr Haley that it is appropriate to describe autism as "mad child disease"?

Actually, yes. Do you know anything about mad hatters disease? Felt hats, mercury, all of that? I'm glad your niece is high functioning, she is luckier than many.

Mercury thermometers are no longer used because better and cheaper alternatives have been invented.

Oh you are too funny!!!! That's why you are supposed to call the health dept if you break a mercury thermometer at home, because they developed cheaper alternatives. Not because they are dangerous???

What was the last time you saw a mercury thermometer for sale? You asked my why mercury thermometers are no longer used. I answered the question. Please try to read for comprehension and not let your prejudices define the meanings of words.

Eczema or a skin rash? They are different things. How many times was your daughter vaccinated against smallpox?

Eczema, not skin rash.

You still haven't told me how many times your daughter was vaccinated for smallpox, the only vaccine which regularly causes eczema.

Hypotonic hyporesponsive episodes are are normal, but relatively rare, side effect of pertussis vaccination. Doctors are ready for them, know how to treat them, and there is no known case of any child suffering any after- effects. An HHE is not a contraindication for further doses of pertussis vaccine, but a paediatrician should be asked to advise on future immunisation options. Did you seek such advice?

Yes, my doctor said she was normal. Don't you get it?

You really should see someone about your reading problem. Your daughter had a normal reaction to a pertussis shot. You admit that the doctor told you that it was normal. What is there to get?

If your daughter showed neurological damage after every vaccination and each episode was worse, why did you continue to have her vaccinated?

I was told I had no choice, believed that, and told that the vaccines had nothing to do with any of her problems.

You were told the truth, whatever you chose to believe or invent later.

You raised the possibility that your daughter may have had a specific genetic disposition toward susceptibility to mercury damage (despite there not being a single paper ever published in the scientific literature to suggest that possibility). You now say that you neither know nor care if she had that genetic condition, but you just threw it in to make mercury sound more dangerous. Thank you for being honest about your dishonesty.

You are a freakshow. Thousands of children are suffering and you sit there in denial. It must really suck to be you.

Millions of children are suffering and dying and you just sit there saying "Let them die until you can guarantee that my child is perfectly safe". A freak show wouldn't accept you because even people who would believe that the bearded lady who is half donkey might be real would find it hard to believe that someone as callous and uncaring as you could exist.

Which part of "Vaccines are not 100% effective" was hard to understand? The fact that full vaccination does not guarantee 100% immunity is not a reason to abandon vaccination, but it is a reason to keep unvaccinated and possibly pox-ridden children away from those whose parents have acted responsibly.

Taking risks for less than 100% efficacy should be up to individual choice.

I realise that in anti-vaccine world a child with meningitis or blindness from measles is not suffering at all because he is not dead, but out in the real world where people care about children other than their own these things matter.

Haven't met anyone yet with measles or meningitis, oh, other than that kid last week who was vaccinated with HIB and got meningitis anyway. My grandmother had pertussis and measles at the same time. She's still here.

Your grandmother was lucky. Luckier than the 750,000 children who die each year of measles, or the millions who become blind or brain damaged from it, or the 170,000 who die of meningitis, or the 200,000 to 400,000 who die from pertussis. But these are not your relatives, so they mean less than nothing to you.


Two emails from me produce three responses from Ms Winkler.


From: "Dawn Winkler
Subject: Re: Vaccine Liars
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 08:21:18 -0700

Dearest Mr. Bowditch:

Would you kindly answer these questions, assuming you have nothing to hide here:

Do you have children?

Yes, two, plus one grandchild.

Are they vaccinated?

Of course. I am a responsible parent - responsible for the safety of my own children as well as those in the wider community.

How many courses of antibiotics have they been on?

I have no idea, but not very many. I can only remember one in the last year and that was to treat a finger which had an infected cut from a dirty knife.

How many times per year do they have to see a doctor?

At least once (for the flu shot), but apart from that sometimes two.

Have they ever been hospitalized?

My elder daughter has been hospitalised once. The doctors didn't think she should go straight home after having a Caesarean. The younger one has been hospitalised following traumatic injury. My grandson was kept in for a couple of days after a fall (see http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/history/2003/04april.htm#sgs)

How many times per year do they miss school because they are sick?

My elder daughter probably had two days off school through illness. The younger one has been home-schooled for a while so the question is moot.

Does the green snot ever stop dripping from their noses?

The answer is "No", but that's because it never started.

Have they had RSV or pneumonia?

No

Do they have asthma, diabetes, or any other chronic untreatable disease?

No

Do they have eczema?

No

Have they needed breathting treatments or topical steroids?

No

Are they developmentally "on target"?

My elder daughter had to repeat one year of primary school, but this was to satisfy some bureaucratic angst about where her birthday fell in the year and the age entry requirements for high school. The younger one has just completed two years of schooling in one very part-time year.

Thanks.

Sincerely,
Dawn Winkler


From: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: Re: Vaccine Liars
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:21:51 -0700

Dear Mr. Bowditch,

Thanks for your answers. I'd like to offer this up to you.

How about a live debate with a moderator, equal time, questions from the audience. You and me. Anytime, anywhere. Video taped. I also offer this to any public health official or MD. It would have to be next summer after my book is published of course. I'll be traveling, doing seminars and we could arrange for one of them to be a live debate.

If your book promotion tour brings you to Australia I am sure that something could be arranged, but be aware that the local anti-vaccination liar outfits are so frightened of any divergent views that they won't even let me read their mailing lists or sit in the audience at one of their lie-fests. If you want me to travel to you there will be air fares, accommodation and a honorarium to be taken care of. In either case, I would appreciate a review copy of the book before setting any dates.

So far, no takers. Why don't you be the first?

Probably because we have all seen what happens at these so-called "debates". If the sane person gets to speak first, they talk about the effectiveness of vaccination in controlling diseases, the lives saved and the very low levels of risk. The anti-vaccinator then gets up and spouts a mountain of lies about monkey pus, aborted foetuses, antifreeze, gallons of mercury, autism, green snot, vested interests, conspiracies, shaken baby syndrome, assaults on the immune system, informed choice, leaky guts (if they want to blame autism on MMR, not mercury) and so on. As there is not enough time left to make any appreciable impact on this pile of stinking manure, the audience thinks that the anti-vaccinator has won. If the anti-vaccinator wins the toss and speaks first, it simply shortens the process.

BTW, my totally unvaccinated son has NEVER SEEN A DOCTOR (other than for the ridiculous school physical crap). He has NEVER HAD AN ANTIBIOTIC. He is never sick other than maybe a minor cold lasting a few days.

He goes to a private school where over 80% of the students are UNVACCINATED. (are you cringing?)

Why should I cringe? One of the reasons for the establishment of private schools is to allow the fantasies of parents to be inflicted on their children. The usual reason is so that the children's heads can be filled with religious nonsense and bigotry, but you seem to have found a school where the form of abuse is the rejection of medical care.

The kids are the healthiest I have ever seeen and there is no Ritalin, asthma, eczema, ADD, autism, or otherwise. And no, it's not because the people are wealthy, I'm certainly not and my son received financial aid as did many families. So far, no outbreaks of those "deadly" diseases everyone is so scared of. The few that are vaccinated you can tell from 20 feet away, the dark circles under their eyes stand out like a sore thumb and the snot never quits dripping.

Now I know you are lying.

Their parents have talked to me and stopped any future vaccinations (now you must be cringing). No one gets a worthless and ineffective flu shot!!!! Imagine that!!!!!

My definition of a responsible parent isn't blindly following the masses in injecting toxic substances into my child without doing the proper research. I was irresponsible when I vaccinated my daughter without so much as a question. She's dead, so I guess it worked, she cannot spread disease.

You have claimed that your daughter showed immediate and severe reactions to every vaccination she had. Why did you continue to torture her?

And oh yeah, I was one of the last to get a smallpox vaccine and it nearly killed me. My husband is one year older than me, lived in another part of the country, and didn't get one. Hmmm, wonder why it wasn't necessary for him?

Probably for the same reason it wasn't necessary for me - there was no smallpox in my immediate vicinity.

Let me know about the debate OK?
Dawn Winkler


From: "Dawn Winkler"
Subject: Re: Vaccine Liars
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:33:50 -0700

If your book promotion tour brings you to Australia I am sure that ...

The debate can be just a debate, not a book promotion ordeal. I don't really plan on travelling to Oz but if the occasion arises, I will. I'll be sure and let you know. By all means you can review the book, but you'll have to buy it. If we had a debate here, I'd pay for travel and accomodations, you bet. And some spending money. I'm sure there are many who would like to help with this.

My bags are packed, I'm ready to go ...

Probably because we have all seen what happens at these so-called "debates". If the sane person gets to speak first, they talk about the effectiveness of vaccination in controlling diseases, the lives saved and the very low levels of risk. The anti-vaccinator then gets up and spouts a mountain of lies about monkey pus, aborted foetuses, antifreeze, gallons of mercury, autism, green snot, vested interests, conspiracies, shaken baby syndrome, assaults on the immune system, informed choice, leaky guts (if they want to blame autism on MMR, not mercury) and so on. As there is not enough time left to make any appreciable impact on this pile of stinking manure, the audience thinks that the anti-vaccinator has won. If the anti-vaccinator wins the toss and speaks first, it simply shortens the process.

In other words, you are scared. This could not happen in a truly moderated setting, equal time and each person gets to do one or the other, opening statement last or closing statement last.

I'm not scared, just experienced. It is virtually impossible to have a debate of any kind when one side does not feel constrained to tell the truth and is prepared to lie at any time and change the rules whenever they feel like it. As examples, drawn from the short exchange we have had, you have made the following false and/or ridiculous statements of "fact", none of which can be quickly rebutted in a debate format:

Despite my long experience with anti-vaccination liars, I have to admit that you were the first to use the green snot, APOE and eczema arguments. If these lies were thrown at me without warning in a debate it could seem that I was caught flat-footed by facts which I could not dispute, when the truth would be that I would be speechless with amazement that someone would attempt such transparent lies and expect anyone to believe them.

Why should I cringe? One of the reasons for the establishment of private schools is to allow the fantasies of parents to be inflicted on their children. The usual reason is so that the children's heads can be filled with religious nonsense and bigotry, but you seem to have found a school where the form of abuse is the rejection of medical care.

So all private schools have a form of abuse?

There you go again with the lack of reading comprehension.

You are a real nut case. There are no fantasies carried out or religious BS spouted off at my son's school. It is simply a school for those who choose not to use our public school, for various reasons. Speaking of religion, yours seems to be that of the medical indstury. Follow blindly and defend at all costs.You can't think for yourself or follow your own common sense. I don't reject medical care, I seek it when it is necessary and stay away from it when it is not.

It's not just the school that is mostly unvaccinated, down here in my end of the valley, vax rates have fallen 13% since I moved here and started doing workshops. Those kids go to public school. We are under the level that is called herd immunity and gee, no outbreaks yet.

Remember that word - "yet".

Now I know you are lying.

No, you don't. This couldn't be more true. I can spot a vaccinated child from 20 feet away.

No you can't.

It's so clear. Why have there been no studies comparing the overall health of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children?

Where are the iron lungs?

Vaccinated children are sick, period. Their Th1/Th2 balance is messed up because they have overstimulated one response rather than naturally allowing both to take place. They have Th2 mediated diseases, asthma, etc. They have snot dripping all the time, they are on antibiotics more than anyone should be, they have ear infections, they have have dark circles around their eyes, they have allergies, and on and on and on. And our medical community labels them healthly, as I'm sure you do as well.

And you accuse me of being a nutcase?

You have claimed that your daughter showed immediate and severe reactions to every vaccination she had. Why did you continue to torture her?

Because I was FORCED!!!!!!!!!!! Don't you get it???????? I was told I HAD to for daycare, I lived in a state without decent exemption law. My doctor kept telling me she was fine, I was supposed to trust him, right? I thought I was doing the right thing. I was unaware of what was even in a vaccine. Now that I know, I don't vaccinate my son or any of my family.

What is in a vaccine? Try not to mention monkey pus, antifreeze or aborted foetuses.

Oh, interesting tidbit, my mother works for a dentist. He pays for everyone to get a flu shot every year. My mother always refuses. She has never missed work or been sick. Everyone else in the office gets the shot, gets the flu, and misses work.

No they don't. By the way, does your mother ever go near dental amalgam?

Same at my husband's government job. He is one of the few to refuse it, never gets sick, everyone else gets the shot and a few days later, home in bed for a week.

No they aren't.

And my father who runs a hospital (chief of operations and chief financial officer) never gets a flu shot either and is never sick. He runs a hospital and is the first to say how ridiculous our medical industry has become and what liars doctors are. He works with them every day, he should know.

And yet he still accepts a pay packet from them. Hypocrisy must run in the family.

Tonight I get to have a lovely meeting with an author of yet another book (several coming out at around the same time) and an MD who doesn't support vaccinations. One day you will realize who the liars really are.

I realised it many years ago. That is why I spend time fighting them. I do it for the children.


I wrote to The Children's Hospital in Denver CO:

Date: Tue, 07 Dec 2004 12:23:19 +1100

I came across a mention of your organisation in a CBS 4 story about the appalling rates of vaccination in Colorado (http://news4colorado.com/health/local_story_037133955.html). What brought me to that web page was a mention of Dawn Winkler.

The paragraphs mentioning her say:

Dawn Winkler of Gunnison said she believes mercury in vaccines led to the death of her 5-month-old daughter eight years ago. She refused any shots for her son, now 7. (Many vaccines used to contain a mercury-based preservative called thimerosal.)

"After my daughter died, it was agonizing to decide for my son," she said. "I'm not anti-vaccine, but it's a medical procedure that involves risk."

I was not surprised to see her say that she is "not anti-vaccine", because lying is what the anti-vaccination liars do, but I am concerned (as you should be) that the media are asking her to express an opinion and then treating that opinion as if it has value.

I have been attempting to carry on a conversation with Ms Winkler in which she demonstrated the sophistry, selfishness, and deliberate mendacity typical of the opponents of vaccination. I have given up the conversation for now, partly because I like to be polite and it can be very difficult to maintain good manners in the face of this sort of provocation, and also because I felt that if I continued I could leave myself open to accusations of tormenting the mentally ill. You can read the conversation at http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/hapi.htm

What should concern everyone in the state of Colorado is that Winkler proudly boasts that she is working (apparently successfully, but that could be another lie) to reduce the already too low levels of vaccination. I would suggest that whenever the media contacts your organisation for comments the point should be made that Winkler is ideologically opposed to vaccination and therefore any statements she makes should be treated with extreme caution.

Keep up the good work.


Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:13:05 -0600
From: HAPI
Subject: Oh Really

Dear Peter,
You are polite and you gave up our conversation?
I am mentally ill?
Dawn

<Ms Winkler then went on to quote from my email above to the Children's Hospital in Denver>

I am not a psychiatrist, so I am not qualified to make a diagnosis, but you certainly appear to be delusional, paranoid, phobic and sociopathic. You freely confess to "seeing" such non-existent things as eight-year-old autistics who shit their pants and cannot speak and other children with "green snot" constantly running down their faces. Normal people do not see these things. You seem to believe that there is some massive conspiracy involving pharmaceutical companies, but you believe this without evidence. You are fearful of non-existent threats such as mercury in vaccines which do not contain mercury, even though all evidence suggests that no harm would come from the mercury anyway even if it was there. You engage in activities which, if successful, would lead to the deaths or damage of countless children, but you show no concern whatsoever for these children. On that last point, I am possibly wrong to call it "sociopathic". "Psychopathic" is probably a better word.


Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 23:21:25 -0600
From: HAPI
Subject: Child Killers

Peter,
Am I a "child killer"? Because that's how you word the introduction to our conversation.
Dawn

I am not accusing you of being like some of the heroes of the anti-vaccination movement and actually directly murdering children yourself. There are, however, ways of indirectly killing children. Anyone who actively denied food to children, causing them to starve to death, would be be called a child killer. Anyone who denied water to children, causing them to die of thirst and dehydration, would be called a child killer. Anyone who denied medical care for children suffering from life-threatening illnesses or injuries would be called a child killer. People who place children in harm's way by using them as soldiers or to clear minefields are called child killers. Nobody would dispute the "child killer" label in these circumstances.

You, on the other hand, actively advocate that children should be denied protection against life-threatening and disabling diseases, and the inevitable result of such advocacy, should it be even partially successful, is the death or permanent harm of many children. If you got everything you wanted, the deaths would be counted in the tens of millions and the blind, halt and lame in the hundreds of millions. You would sentence children to death. You are no different to the examples listed above. Get the words "Child Killer" embroidered onto a baseball cap. Put the cap on. It will fit perfectly.


Vote early and vote often (23/9/2006)
In late 2004 I had a conversation with Dawn Winkler, one of the most egregious anti-vaccination liars I have ever had the pleasure of doing business with. Actually, it wasn't really a conversation as the interchange mainly consisted of me pointing out flaws in her story and her then moving the goalposts and adding more lies to the pile. I finally gave up as I was worried that observers might accuse me of mocking the afflicted. You can read the saga here.

Ms Winkler has now announced that she is running for political office, specifically for the position of Governor of Colorado. I have magnanimously decided to apply my "kind and gentle" policy and offer her the following suggestions for a platform of policies to use during the campaign.

Dear Dawn,

I have heard that you are running for Governor of Colorado, so I thought that I would offer some policy suggestions.

Aged care
Old people are a burden on society, so you should ban anyone over retirement age from receiving flu vaccine. As winter is approaching in your part of the world, this should mean that fewer of these ancient parasites would be around next year with their incessant demands for subsidised medications, cheap bus tickets and discounts at Pizza Hut.

Workplace productivity
I remember that you told me that the only people who ever lose work because of the flu are those who have been vaccinated against the disease. By banning all flu vaccination for people of working age you will increase overall productivity and also free up workers' sick leave allowances so that the days can be used for such minor irritations as pneumonia and major medical catastrophes such as skin rashes.

Teenage pregnancy
This is always a problem, and there is little politicians can do about it except to make the penalties more severe. By banning access to vaccines against hepatitis B and human papilloma virus you will increase the likelihood that the little sluts will get an appropriate punishment for their behaviour. This is a long-term solution, of course, but it won't be many years before every high school girl has had a friend or acquaintance die because they couldn't get a liver transplant, a cone biopsy or a hysterectomy in time. You might also consider banning liver biopsies and Pap smears for even greater effect.

Road deaths
Statistics indicate that adolescents are over-represented in the road toll, both as victims and as those responsible for accidents. By banning all childhood vaccines altogether you will be able to reduce the number of children who survive until the age when they can start driving. This will have the added advantage of reducing the need for public services such as police, ambulances and hospital emergency facilities. And high schools.

Internet pornography
Measles is one of the leading causes of blindness in the world. By banning measles vaccination you should be able to increase the number of blind people who, obviously, can't look at pornography. For those who don't go blind, banning of the mumps vaccine should increase the proportion of men who can't use dirty pictures even if they can see them. A good dose of diphtheria will reduce the ability of female porn stars to moan in simulated ecstasy and has the added advantage of, how shall I put this tastefully, making certain sexual practices less attractive.

Free hair cuts
You could offer to rebate the cost of children's hair cuts if the parents sent the clippings to a laboratory (not one obviously associated with Professor Boyd Haley) and pay to have the hair analysed for heavy metal contamination.

Free dental care
If, as expected, the results of the hair tests show massive mercury loads, you could offer free replacement of amalgam fillings with chemical-free composites (but only after compatibility testing at a laboratory not obviously run for the benefit of Professor Boyd Haley).

University scholarships
You could offer scholarships to allow youngsters to study postmodern chemistry at the University of Kentucky. Postmodern chemistry is the sort where the chemical and biological properties of a compound can be established by looking for other compounds with rhyming names. Examples would be that ethanol has exactly the same effect on the body as methanol and how the element boron makes you think of a moron.

Snot elimination
I am sure that it would be attractive to parents of vaccinated children to be offered subsidised (or even free) supplies of Kleenex tissues so that they can wipe off the green snot which continuously runs from the noses of all vaccinated children. This policy might also attract other voters who are sick of seeing rivers of snot every time they go near a group of children.

Diapers for autistics
It is almost certain that parents of autistic children will rush to vote for you if you offer to supply them with free diapers to control the way that their mute kids shit their pants.

(Note: These last two can be offered as temporary policies, because if you ban vaccines altogether both autism and nose running will be eliminated in a generation.)

Other benefits to society
As well as the specific items mentioned above, there could be many benefits to society arising from the banning of all vaccines, most related to the reduced number of children who live beyond a few years. Examples would be reductions in custody disputes in divorce proceedings, less shoplifting, lower incidence of underage drinking, reduced class sizes in public schools, decreased demand for child care places, lower demand for music which parents hate, fewer kids hanging around shopping centres wearing weird clothes, etc.

I hope you find this list of suggestions useful. Please use them all in your campaigning as they will show what sort of a person you are and allow the voters of Colorado the opportunity to see what they would be getting if you succeed in the gubernatorial race.

Your friend,
Peter



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